DATA Firmware SYS V01.02.05 (little update)

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During the last half of 2022 I'd been back in the code working on DATA’s Big Updateℱ again (new sequencer program and spectral programs overhaul), ended up fixing a few random bugs and doing some backend improvements, which lead to incrementing the firmware to V01.02.05. 

You can download the latest firmware HERE

Updating is easy, just download the file and put it on your DATA's micro SD card. Turn the DATA off and put the card in and once the DATA is powered on again it will read the card and update the firmware automatically on start up. 
*See the DATA User Guide for more detailed update instructions  

Summary of changes: 

  • Fixed Wave Output Oscillator Ch 1 bug, previously it had some audible background noise due to an error in the DAC's SPI transfer function call.

  • Fixed Wave Output waveform display scale mismatched, one channel was more zoomed in than the other.

  • Slight adjustment to the oscilloscope's colors for Ch 2 & Ch 3 for better visibility.

  • Fixed scope NORM trigger bug when viewing low frequency signals (< 30 Hz) at fast time base (< 2ms).

  • Lots of "under the hood" improvements, particularly with the display engine. 

RETURN TO SUPERBOOOTH!

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We’re very excited to be returning this week to Berlin for everyone’s favorite synth event, SUPERBOOTH!
đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›
Taking place at The Fez, ~20 min SE of the city center in der ParkbĂŒhne Wuhlheide, from 12-14 May 2022. We’ll be out back by the StrandbĂŒhne / Beach Stage, in the PARTY TENT with Schlappi Engineering, Mystic Circuits, and other awesome folks, table # Z396. Come BE SOOPER with us!!!
More info & tickets: www.besooper.com & www.superbooth.com
đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›đŸ”„đŸŽ›

ACHTUNG! Mordax Web Store Orders Shipping Pause: As the Mordax team will be away for Superbooth and EU business for most of the month of May, please note that all web store orders placed after Sunday, 8 May 2022 will ship when we return, Thursday 2 June 2022. If you need a DATA before then, be sure check with our Retail Partners, as they may still have some DATAs available!

Another weird ass year!

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Another weird ass year! And somehow we’re still going 😅 The global parts shortage continues but we’ve been very lucky and it looks like we’ll be continuing DATA shipments into 2022! đŸ„ł

Hats off to our amazing production team for all their hard work this year, who, despite the challenges, built and shipped a record number of DATAs! đŸ€ŻđŸ‘

On the development front we’re still working on that looong overdue DATA firmware, and yes, the GXN granular sampler is still happening, thanks for all the emails. Hope to have more to share in that area soon!

Hope y’all are staying safe and sane, here’s to a better 2022 đŸ„‚

DATA Now Available With New Silver & Black Metal Front Panels!

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đŸ”„đŸ”„đŸ”„ It’s DATA time! Now with new silver anodized aluminum and black metal front panels!!! đŸ”„đŸ”„đŸ”„

Orders are open in the Mordax web store (with free U.S. domestic shipping) and we’ve started filling our backlog of orders with our fantastic retail partners!

We’ve only got a handful of units up on the web store, per usual most of the run is going to retailers, so don’t worry if you see we’re out of stock here again in a few weeks, as well be continuing to ship to the retail shops through next month and concurrently we have another big batch of DATA boards to solder up coming in mid-December. 

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Regarding the front panel change (again!) - We'll be keeping with the metal panels for the foreseeable future. And please note that we are not selling panels separately at this time.

We liked the hi-res FR4 PCB panels, and spent a ton of time on developing them, but our yields were always too unpredictable, and while the manufacturing of metal panels can (and sure does!) have it's own issues, it seems they will still have higher yields compared to the PCB ones. And metal just feels nice and sturdy.

Also, the white panel variant may return later, as powder coated metal, like the first DATA batches. Over the last few months we tried repeatedly to do white panels for this round too, but none of the shops we tested with came back with usable parts, having issues with irregular coating thickness (e.g., buttons, jacks, window not fitting through) and with printing the graphics on the material. So, for the next few runs anyways it will be just silver and black panels.

DATA Production Update - Getting Close, Waiting on Front Panels...

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DATA production is in full swing once again! 🙌 Made new 3D printed jigs to aid in assembly and the solder crew is doing great rocking ‘em out every day đŸ”„đŸ‘ Still waiting on front panels... 😬⏳

And while we’re not taking pre-orders for the DATA, the best way to make sure you know when they are available is to sign up for the Mordax Email Newsletter (if you haven’t already).

Plague Times Update

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Many emails asking if we’re still shipping DATAs and the answer is YES! Things are moving slower than usual, but we are still shipping DATA orders from our webstore and to our retail partners. Thanks for being patient! Hope y’all are safe and sane and playing synthesizers! đŸ˜·đŸ–€đŸŽč‬

You can order a DATA from us HERE or check out our retail partner list HERE

More DATA, New HQ & Team, PDX Synth Fest

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It's that time again, MORE DATAS!!! Orders are now open in the Mordax web store (with free U.S. domestic shipping) and we’ve begun stocking our wonderful retail partners.

Also, we’ve had some super exciting developments in the past couple months here at Mordax:

First, we’ve finally moved out of the shitty basement where we started and into a proper space, in the Providence Academy building in downtown Vancouver, Washington! Moving the whole operation took some time, but was well worth it, as having everything setup in one large space, and having windows with plenty of light, has been a real boost to sanity and efficiency.

New Mordax HQ &amp; New Crew: Kelly &amp; Allison, Lt. Cmdr. Data, and Leisea

New Mordax HQ & New Crew: Kelly & Allison, Lt. Cmdr. Data, and Leisea

Second, we were joined by Allison Oard, Mordax’s new Operations Manager! Allison recently moved out west from Michigan, where she’d been working at Cusack Music / Mojo Hand FX on guitar pedal production and design. A long time guitarist, we’re glad to have her coming over to the dark side, the world of synthesizers! Allison and her crew of technicians have been doing an awesome job with production here and we’re optimistic we’ll soon be able to have more regular DATA availability, as well as get back to our development schedule, wrapping up the new DATA firmware and moving forward with the GXN Grain Sampler!   

Lastly, we’ve got a couple of events coming up: 

Today! Saturday, March 7th it’s the 1st Portland Pedal & Synth+Modular Expo @ The Holocene, 10th & SE Morrison! Mordax has a table along with a ton of other awesome synth and pedal makers, should be lots of fun! We’ll be there all day, 11:30am-5:30pm, so come by and talk nerd with us! More info here:
https://pedals.thedelimagazine.com/1st-portland-pedal-synth-expo-march-7th-at-holocene/

And next month we’ll again be traveling to Berlin for our favorite event, SUPERBOOTH !!! They moved it a little earlier this year, April 23-25, 2020, which conveniently coincides with Ableton’s Loop Conference, also in Berlin. Hope to see you there! 
https://www.superbooth.com

New DATA Batch Now Ready & Velocity Seattle Next Weekend!

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DATA_R6_Final.JPG

At last, more DATAs ready to go! Orders are now open in the Mordax web store (with free U.S. domestic shipping) and we’ve begun stocking our beloved retail partners. They always go quick, so grab ‘em while you can!

Also, a brief note about the next DATA firmware update (which includes the quad CV/gate sequencer program), as there’s a high probability of emails and messages coming in about this - Still working on it! As mentioned on the forum a couple weeks ago:
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after I got going on it the feature creep set in and now it's looking like it'll be the most complex program in the DATA system. Shoulda seen that coming, sequencers are not trivial things. A lot of it is just tricky UI stuff though, as the DATA's one knob and nine buttons was not originally planned for a quad CV/Gate/Trig/Note sequencer's interface, and it must be kept as fluid and intuitive to use as the rest of the programs.”

Lastly, we’re super excited to be a part of the new northwest synth festival VELOCITY SEATTLE! It’s going down next weekend, Saturday October 5th, at the Substation in Seattle, Washington.

There’s talks, workshops, and a trade show during the day, and then in the evening until late there’s three stages of music. A ton of great folks are making this happen and the performance line up is insanely good, hope to see you there!!!

Check out Velocity’s website for tickets and more info: https://www.velocityseattle.com

VELOCITY SEATTLE 2019.PNG

DATA Production Update & Knobcon Next Weekend!

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The next batch of DATAs are almost ready!!! Last week was eventful - Our new injection molded display windows came in (and look amazing!), then Ross, Michael, & Thomas down at Moffenzeef rocked out the majority of the THT soldering, and at last, the final assembly process began in the Mordax dungeon!

We get a lot of messages like “When will DATAs be available?” , “Can I pre-order one?”, “You’re so mean, why won’t you give me one now?” etc., so here’s the deal:

DATAs will be available to order here on the Mordax site and from our retail partners as soon as possible! We want you to have DATAs, it’s what we work towards every day. Nothing makes us happier than shipping DATAs to those who love them, hearing and seeing them out in the world.

But, as the saying goings, making hardware is hard! With so many moving pieces in the production of something as complex as the DATA it’s difficult to project with certainty the exact date they will be ready. With that said, we’re very close to completing the next batch now, and it is likely (although not certain) we will start taking orders and shipping within the next few weeks.

We are not taking pre-orders for this round, although some of our retail partners are. But the second we open up orders on the site we will be sending out a notification to our newsletter mailing list group. If you want to know when you can get a DATA, please sign up for the mailing list if you haven’t already (the Newsletter email field on this page’s side bar, or on mobile at the bottom of this page).


And just to complicate things
 we’ll be pausing on DATA production briefly this week to fly out to Chicago for KNOBCON NUMBER 8!!! It’s the first time attending for Mordax and we’re super excited, as it’s suppose to be the nerdiest show of them all, and double plus excited for the keynote speech and workshop by Dr. John Chowning, inventor of FM synthesis :D

Hope to see you there! Check out the KNOBCON site for more info: https://knobcon.com

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DATA Now Available with BLACK and WHITE Hi-Res Front Panels

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DATA modules are now available, and with new hi-res front panels in WHITE and BLACK! They go quick, so order now in the Mordax Shop (with FREE U.S. domestic shipping) or from one of our awesome retail partners.

Check out the new look! We changed up the design a bit to be in line with the GXN's panel style; left-justified the DATA at the top and added the little descriptor text. And we finally made the much requested BLACK version! The new panels are FR-4 based, similar to those of many fellow eurorack makers (e.g., Make Noise, 4ms), but these are a little different, using a novel process of stacked layers of liquid photo imaged polymer mask, each a different color - white, black, and green - to make all of the graphic elements.

MXDATA_closeup-mask-text.png

The imaging process is similar to that which actually makes silk screens, but in this case the photo result is used directly in the final product and there's no loss in resolution, compared to running screens, which pass ink through a mesh. The new process gives super crisp, high resolution text and graphics, with perfect alignment, and improved durability compared to our previous screened ink panels. It took quite the effort to develop and manufacture these, but in the end it was worth it; we love how these turned out and we hope you will too!

Gotta give a shout out to super brain Bunnie Huang for setting us on this development path. At the Teardown Conference in Portland last May, Bunnie had told us about using layered mask as a potential solution to avoiding the issues inherent with silk screening. Thanks for the tip Bunnie, it totally worked!

The front panel change wasn't just for aesthetics though, and it wasn't for cost savings either - the new panels surprisingly turned out to be more expensive! Rather, it was part of a larger directive here at Mordax to identify and address all of the major pain points with our internal and external manufacturing, so that the DATA can be less unobtanium going forward, and so that we can go into production with the other awesome products in the pipeline without getting bogged down.

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Historically the display/window/panel mount was one of these pain points for our in-house assembly, as well as for service repairs. It was a permanent process, where the window was glued with structural adhesive into the front panel, let sit for 12-24 hrs to dry, and then the display was hand aligned on to the panel with camera assist, UV-cure glued to set the placement, and then silicone sealed to the window/front panel around its edge, with another 24 hour cycle as the silicone set. Now with the new processes there's no permanent adhesives involved between the display, window, and front panel; a die-cut Rogers PORON gasket around the rim of the display compresses to seal the space between the display and window from dust and debris, while holding the window in place against the front panel. The display is mounted to the DATA’s front PCB now, with hex standoffs, on a custom platform (also made of FR-4), which is self-aligning and further aided in assembly by a 3D printed jig. The precision and repeatability in the manufacturing of the new panels was essential, as the powder coating on the former panels could not meet the sub-millimeter tolerances required of the the new display/window assembly design.

This improved display/window/front panel process has worked out great for us this run, but we want to point out that it means the new front panels are not compatible with DATAs made using the previous permanent display/window/panel process. So don't go through the trouble of unscrewing all those jack nuts hoping to swap front panels with your mate’s DATA from a previous run. Also FYI - we're not selling the new front panels separately at this time.

And speaking of compatibility, we also want to point out that these new DATAs are 100% electrically identical to the previous units, they run the same firmware, and both will work with all future firmware updates. These are NOT the DATA Mk II, there is only one DATA, there’s just different faces and assembly now. There was another revision of the circuit board for this run, adding the mount points, and you can see some parts on the board have moved a little (like the inter-board headers), but these changes are all mechanical. We've already had some folks ask about this and hopefully this clears up any potential confusion, but if not, feel free to email us with any questions you have about the changes.

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UP NEXT

We'll be wrapping production and continuing shipping over the next couple weeks, then we'll be starting right up again on the next batch, as well as doing a test run of a third DATA panel variant - that's right, we're gonna do a silver one too, as we’ve had number of requests from the all-silver-case purists.

On the development side, we've got a DATA firmware update in the works, and we're continuing design on the GXN Granular Synthesis System. Obviously we didn't hit our initial target of getting the GXN into production this year, but it's coming along, slow and steady, after a brief pause for all the DFM work on the DATA and processes. We get many emails asking about the GXN's release (just got another one while writing this post actually), which is a good thing, as it means people are as excited about it as we are! But it's hard to gauge its time line with precision; sometimes what you expect to be difficult and take a lot of time turns out to be quick and easy, and then the things you weren't worried about, or things you didn't even know to be worried about, can end up taking forever (like all the contract manufacturing issues we had on this last DATA run!) . We only will release a product when we are satisfied with it, and will never rush just to get it out and grab cash. Patience. Know that the GXN is coming and it will be amazing.

Lastly, want to mention some shows coming up in the new year. Mordax will be at the new SynthPlex event in Burbank, California March 28-31, and we'll be returning to SuperBooth in Berlin, Germany May 9-11. These sound far off, but time flies, so start making those travel plans, we hope to see you there!

GXN at SuperBooth 2018 & more DATAs on the way!

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Last month we traveled to Berlin for the mother of synth events, SuperBooth 2018, and took along our new module in development, the GXN Granular Synthesis System. It was a great show and we were excited to show the latest on the GXN, which included the beginnings of the CV control system - check out the interview video with DivKid Ben from Superbooth above. 

We’re now back to working on the GXN here, with the goal of completing the production prototype hardware for the module by the end of this summer. If that goal is met, we will move into production this fall and have the first round of GXNs available before the holidays later this year. The final price won’t be determined until the production prototype is completed and quoted for manufacturing, but we’re still aiming for under $600 USD. 

To stay in the loop on GXN availability and developments, be sure to sign up for the Mordax Email Newsletter via the form on the sidebar / bottom of this page.
 

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More DATAs are on the way! We’re wrapping up production on the latest batch of DATAs here at Mordax HQ and have started shipping our web-store and vendor orders. 

If you still need a DATA (or are ready for another!) we are taking and shipping orders now from the MORDAX SHOP (with FREE U.S. domestic shipping), and the DATA is currently or soon to be in stock from our list of world-wide retail partners. 

Also, concurrently with the GXN development, we’re working on some exciting new features for the DATA. We’re aiming to have these updates for the DATA System firmware ready for release later this summer - stay tuned for more! 
 

GXN Granular Synthesis Eurorack Module Announced at NAMM 2018

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We were happy to announce our next eurorack module at the 2018 Winter NAMM Show - the GXN Granular Synthesis System!

Our aim with the GXN is to realize in hardware our dream of the ultimate granular sample manipulation system. We started working with granular synthesis in NI's Reaktor back in the early 2000s, building custom instruments that were the basis of many compositions and live performances between 2003 to 2009. We fell in love with granular techniques at that time, but since moving towards a hardware-focused setup in recent years, we haven’t had a suitable device for continuing to explore these methods in detail - until now! 

The GXN is still in active development, but it is already very inspiring to play with, as you can see from the show videos. In brief, the plan is:

  • The GXN is a sample recorder & playback device, also with live buffer capture and processing.

  • Full external CV control over all parameters, routable via modulation assignment (similar to the DATA's CV input), as well as internal modulation sources and precision numerical control.  

  • It can be used as a complex sample granulator, as well as a more traditional polyphonic sample player.

  • We aim to have the GXN available Summer/Fall 2018, with target pricing less than $600 USD.

  • To be informed of the GXN’s release and pre-order, please sign up for our email newsletter at the sidebar (or on a phone, the bottom box) of this page.

And if you have feedback or feature requests for the GXN, please share your thoughts with us via our Contact Page.

Here’s a few more videos from the NAMM show covering the GXN:

 

Big thanks to our pals at WMD for organizing another great modular block at the NAMM Show!

The next GXN showing will be at SuperBooth Berlin, May 3-5 2018, see you there!!!

The Mordax booth babes:&nbsp;Blake, Brandon, and Taylor

The Mordax booth babes: Blake, Brandon, and Taylor

DATA now in stock!!! New firmware & user guide updated

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It’s DATA time! We got a fresh batch of DATA modules available in the Mordax shop (now with FREE U.S. domestic shipping) and from our wonderful retail partners worldwide.
 

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With the latest DATA firmware SYS V. 01.02.02 we have a major update to the CLOCK OUTPUT program. The new CLOCK core has been completely redesigned, now with 4 channels of independent clock output (upgraded from 2 ch), all with full CV input control over their divide/multiply value and offset. Many new CLOCK divide/multiply values have been added, including fractional div/mults allowing for dotted and triplet note values (e.g., x1.3 = dotted 8th note), and an increased overall range from /48 (12 measures) to x48 (128th note triplets).

The Wave Output program also got some “under-the-hood” work on this update. The oscillators have been improved, they are now higher resolution and have less aliasing noise, and the CV input processing has been further optimized allowing for faster and more precise CV modulation of the oscillator’s frequency and amplitude.

Download the updates:
DATA Firmware Update V.01.02.02
DATA User Guide 171002

Production Update & New Team Member!

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Production is in full swing here at Mordax HQ! The next batch of DATAs is slated to go out to our pre-ordered retail partners by the end of September, with units available to order directly on our website and from additional retailers shortly thereafter.

Above is a video of the DATA faceplates being cut from aluminum sheets at our new production partner, Profile Laser, in Portland, Oregon. This is the first time we’ve utilized a fiber laser for faceplate cutting and we’re blown away at how fast and clean the cuts are. Thanks Profile team! The run’s faceplates are all cut and powder coated, and will start coming in from the silkscreen shop later this week. 

Aside from the current production run, we’ve been working on an update to the DATA firmware which fixes a bug with the Clock program’s larger division values. Fixing this bug lead to a complete re-design of the Clock program’s core, and allowed adding additional independent clock output channels and more div/mult values, including dotted and triplet notes! We hope to have this new firmware update fully tested and ready to go out in the next few weeks to existing DATA users, and we plan to ship all DATAs currently in production with this latest firmware version.

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Lastly, we’d like to introduce you to the newest member of the Mordax team, our Embedded Systems Design Intern, Blake Rayburn (pictured above). Blake is an undergraduate student in the Electrical and Computer Engineering program at Oregon State University. He’s been working with us over the summer on some exciting new projects (more on those later!) and has been doing a great job learning about embedded audio, video, PCB design, and techno. 
 

DATA Shipping, Available In-Stores, & New DATA Firmware Download

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Whew! We made it, just got to Berlin for the SuperBooth! We’ve been working non-stop for weeks trying to get ready for the show while concurrently producing and shipping hundreds of DATAs, it’s been total madness and we’re very grateful for all our friends who pitched in to make it happen!

On April 8th we started shipping the DATA 2nd run and now all of our pre-orders have gone out, as well as the majority of retail stock. The DATA is now, or soon to be, in-stock at the following stores:

NORTH AMERICA

EUROPE

And at last, we're happy to announce the NEW DATA FIRMWARE is now available for download!

Download the firmware file below and follow the update instructions in the DATA’s User Guide:
DATA FIRMWARE V01.01.00

The firmware adds the new XY scope and “minimal display mode” to the Oscilloscope Program, adds the Triple Wave Folding mode to the dual Waveform Output Program, as well as adds improved encoder knob handling and many little system wide fixes and optimizations. 

We probably won’t be updating the manual until we get back from SuperBooth, so in the meantime if you want to try out the new firmware’s features, here’s a few things to know:

  • To access the XY scope and "Minimal Mode" options in the Oscilloscope program, just hold down the Menu Button for 2 seconds (top right most button) and you will see the top menu items change. To get back to the normal top options (CUR-TRIG-TIME), hold the Menu Button again. 
  • The new wave folding feature of the Wave Out program can be accessed via the “Modes” pop menu at the top right of the screen; select mode “FOLD” or “CLIP”. 
  • Also, for reference you can see these features in use in the video from the NAMM trade show a couple months back.

 

     

     

    Production Update

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    It’s happening! The DATA PCBs arrived at WMD’s facility last week and they made a test run of populating the SMT parts on the boards. They sent us the test units last Saturday and we did the final assembly and inspection over the weekend (big ups to William, Mickey, and the WMD team for their on-point service, as always).

    Everything checked out and we green-lit the run on Monday. WMD is running the boards on their pick-and-place machine currently and we’re expecting to get our first shipment of populated DATA boards the end of this week or early next week; hope to start shipping out DATAs end of next week!

    Thanks for being patient everyone, the wait is almost over!

    Production Update

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    DATA 2nd run production is currently about 2 weeks behind schedule. We had a few things come up: 

    First, the face plates were cut with an error in interior hole dimensions, so that the buttons, jacks, etc. didn’t fit through them. Luckily this was caught before powder coating and silk screening the lot of them, and our laser folks acknowledged their error and fixed the issue without additional costs to the run. The face plates have now been re-cut and powder coated, we should be getting them back from the silk screen shop later this week. 

    Second, our circuit board fab in China got backup up during Chinese New Year (really need to start marking this one on the calendar). I just heard from the board house today and they said our order is now 2-3 days from being completed. We ordered boards back in January and they usually take 7-10 days to produce, so this has been a fair amount longer than expected. We’ve got all our parts at WMD’s facility in Colorado, so they’re ready to go with populating the SMD as soon as the PCBs arrive.

    The final assembly on our end for this run is much quicker than the last, since the last board rev required adding a few SMD parts by hand and now those are machine populated. With the PCBs being shipped in the next few days, we should be able to get DATAs out within the next few weeks. As soon as the pre-order units are out we’ll start on filling the retail orders for this run, which we’re still aiming to get out by the end of March. 

    Thanks for being patient, we’ll keep you posted on developments! 
     

    NAMM 2017 Update: New DATA Features in Development

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    NAMM 2017 is over! It was a blast, but it's good to now be back in the lab and continuing forward with the DATA's next round of production, the new DATA firmware, and our next products.

    At the show we announced a handful of new features for the DATA, to be included with the forthcoming firmware update. Some of the new features are:

    • XY Scope for viewing Lissajous curves, our most requested feature to add!
    • Improved Scope Drawing. We optimized some of the display functions in the scope allowing for even faster and smoother screen updates.
    • Minimal Display Mode for the Scope, turns off the grid and on-screen controls.
    • Wave Folding Mode for the dual Oscillator program. In addition to the Clip waveshaping, there's now an option for Triple Wave Folding the waveforms.
    • We're also working on the encoder handling routines to make the encoder input smoother. 

    Here's a video from the NAMM show with our friends at Analogue Zone  demonstrating some of the new features:

    Mordax Data Feature update at NAMM2017 Mordax - DATA: 2017 March, MSRP: 395$ LET'S CONNECT!

    We're testing everything in the DATA system thoroughly with these new features; so far so good! Once we're satisfied there are no bugs and everything is working well, we'll post the new firmware on the site for download. I estimate it'll be ready in the next few weeks, though you know how it goes with estimating : )